Wonder if the name of the bar suggests that it would be another drinking spot for GWMs and their admirers. Anyone else been there?

In Singapore, most singaporeans will say yes to an American, even before they know what he wants to do.

i'm appalled you are posting this kind of racist nonsense here. that you have biogted views is bad enough, but for you to think you can get away with propagating them in a public, multi-ethnic forum like Signel is really too much.

what is your problem with GWMs or with GAMs who are attracted to them / who are open to the idea of being with them?

we ask str8 people not to coerce us to love those we are not attracted to (women). yet you are using this group to try and scorn / shame / bully GAMs who like GWMs by suggesting that cross-ethnic attractions among gay men are less worthy than same-ethnicity pairings. isn't that also trying to police who we can love?

i wonder if in your ideal world, we would all only date people of the same ethnicity? or are we allowed to prefer a particular ethnicity? if so, are we allowed to prefer men of our OWN ethnicity? if yes (as I'm sure you will say), why not men of a different background?

who knows why we find certain types of men attractive? younger, older, chub, twink... who knows and really, who cares? if you like someone, isn't that enough?

and what are you so afraid of anyway? mixed-race children?

i can think of only two motivations you might have. [1] you are jealous of the popularity of GWMs, and feel they are stealing your potential mates [2] you feel altruistic concern for these vulnerable young GAMs 'fawning' after 20 years older GWMs because the relationship strikes you as being unequal, maybe reinforcing racial inequality, with white being the 'superior' partner.

if its the first reason, then deal with it, life is tough. if its the second reason - you really don't know the interior dynamics of a relationship just by looking at a couple working out at the gym. unhealthy or exploitative relationships exist in same-ethncity couples too, and don't assume that all GAM-GWM realtionships are built on inequality. Also, maybe both partners ENJOY the different roles they play? I know that offends the sensibilities of many people (truth be told, i wouldn't want it for myself either), but as long as its voluntary, not abusive and both partners seem to want it, then who are we to say anything?

by the way, speaking as a fellow 'Asian', are you as scornful when you see a couple where each is of a different ethnicity- but both are Asian? or is that somehow more ok? or what about GWM-GAM relationships without the '20 year' age gap that you seem to despise so much? are those ok? would you prefer to see an older GAM leather daddy top with a young GWM twink? please, do enlighten us so we can all behave properly and not offend your sense of the proper order of the universe.

Your post is rude, intolerant and racist. I hope you understand how offensive it is to many people.

But I see things differently than you - the clubs here are very mixed - certainly not as you described them. You got some sticky rice over there; in the other corner guys who will date any race on the planet; oh look over there - a fruit fly. You seem to have a bit of tunnel vision and choose to somehow see only older GWM's and younger Asian guys, erm, "fawning" over each other EVERYWHERE. Sorry, that just isn't what is going on on this island IMHO. I know so many Asians here who only date Asians. I see many Asian boys at California Fitness working out with other Asian boys. God that's hot, but ANYWAY, perhaps if you take a REAL look at what is going on around you, rather than rely on your selective perception to get you through the day, you'd realise that the little picture that you paint below wouldn't make a penny on Christie's auction block. But you are certainly welcome to try http//www.christies.com.

Hmph!

It has the trappings of race but is more like marketing - I don't believe eaststar is being racist at all.

Look in the USA everyone has a variety of choices - so everyone is more disciminating in what they pursue - if i don't want Vanilla I can get Rocky Road; if I don't want Rice I can get Pasta, and I mean FOOD.

In areas where the majority of the people are the same ethnic/racial/etc and seem to be seeking something other than their own similarity - for what every reason - you will have a sellers market. I don't think this is racist - I think it is reality - now the individuals may be racist in rejecting the others of the same group in favoring the exotic one who is different. Commenting on this situation, I suppose, could be viewed as racist but aren't we all looking for something new and exciting and different. It is human nature.

Racist would be for me, a white guy, to be there and reject "Alex, Kelvin, you" or anyone else BECAUSE they were Chinese, or Indian, or Malay, or Taoist, or Muslim, or Hindu; not to mention how stupid that would be, especially if i was in Singapore. I am sure that eaststar's encounter with his Expat was one where the guy wound up being obnoxious and not comprehending that eaststar really meant NO. So in a way that Expat was being a bit of a racist. You must always remember the object of the Smile Singapore Campagine is to get you all to Smile at the tourist not to jump into bed with them. When we set our sites on the "object that would be our affection" if the prize is a person we always stand the possibility of rejection, no matter how remote that possibility maybe. Since, we were not present and therefore are not privy to the whole conversation, possibly eaststar's objection is not to any of this but to being objectified by the expat.

We all get very sensitive over perceptions of racism, even me, my daughters are Vietnamese/Americans; racially eurasian. I think eaststar's objections are probably more ageist than racist; he doesnt like the idea of GWM's who are 20 years older and 200 pounds heavier than he is hitting on him, and not taking NO for an answer, and believing that eaststar is just playing hard to catch - I am sure eaststar would have no objections to someone his age range and weight range hitting on him at all of any race. I am sure if the mature expat had been a rational guy and realized no means no, we would not be embroiled in this discussion.

In fact I would be so bold as to say - that I don't appreciate the way some of the mature, overweight, PLU, expats treat the local PLUs in Singapore. BUT that has little or nothing to do with age, weight or race it has more to do with people respecting each other and self esteme. A lot, not all, feel that they can go into that situation and BUY what they want. UNfortunately there are a lot of people who are willing to be bought, and some not at a market, much less a very good or reasonable, price.

Danesh, if you want to date older expats go ahead, have a great time, enjoy yourself. My only advice is be cautious; be careful. I have had a number of emails, over the years, from friends in Sg who have met up with or been picked up by expat caucasions and have something less than an enjoyable experience. It is reality. Being Caucasion is no more a justification for being a good and nice person than being Asian is.

I guess i have to find funds to come to SG so i can see this new bar for myself!

Regardless, dinesh, what eaststar means is the really lethal asian conquest of white men... i have white friends who are SCARED of asian guys. Similiarly, i have been labeled potato queen or sticky rice but both sides, usually detrimental to me. (SAD).. but they, that's labels, and we are all guilty of it.

So lets all be nice and sweet, kiss and make up )

Some were in support, some against and some calling for calmness.

I am just curious, would the responses have come if Dinesh had kept quiet?

Would we have felt the conviction to respond or would we have treated it as something that was true for THOSE people and let Eaststar's pronouncements stand?

First of all, thanks to Binx and Kayloh for your postings and being able to see some of my points. Now let me address the issue more fully.

It's unfortunate that Dinesh fires off the racist label so quickly, without even understanding the issue here. And then he suggests it's because I'm "jealous" of the white men who have all the Asians enthralled. He's so offended by my views, which he doesn't even understand to begin with.

Contrary to what he presumes, I'm not the least bit offended by interracial relationships, in fact I encourage them. I've happily dated Caucasians, Chinese, Indians, Malays, Japanese, Korean, and African Americans. What I object to is the *fetishization* of one race, and the ethnic self-hated that results. Did my views offend you Dinesh? Well, let me tell you what offend me

• I'm offended when Asians who date *only* white men tell me that I am a "lesbian" because I date other Asians because "only white men are real men and Asians are women, so if you like Asians, you are lesbian." This phenomenon is so common that it's even mentioned in the afterword of David Henry Hwang's Tony Award-winning play "M Butterfly."
• I'm offended when an Asian says "if it ain't white, it ain't right" or "aiyoh, I rather have sex with a dog than another Asian" or "aiyah, as long as white, can lah." And yes, all these were sentences said to me by intelligent, attractive, affluent Asians.
• I'm offended when an Asian guy tells me he can't leave his much older white lover who abuses him (physically and emotionally) because "the young white guys don't like me, so what to do... " and when I ask why he won't date another Asian, he says "eeee year, how can date another Asian, so incest, so gross."
• I'm offended when Asian guys think that beauty is only found in Caucasian features and go for eyelid surgery, nose jobs, etc., so they can look "better" -- i.e., more white. In fact, I just read this in the latest issue of Time (cover story on plastic surgery) "The culturally-loaded issue today is the number of Asians looking to remake themselves to look more Caucasian... Asians are increasingly asking their surgeons for wider eyes and longer noses...features not typical of the race."
• I'm offended when a gay American says to me "Singaporeans are not Asian to me. You guys are too proud and aggressive to be real Asians. You need to be more like the Thais and Filipinos and Vietnamese, those are the real Asians. I get treated so much better there, not like in Singapore."
• I'm offended when white guys who have enjoyed the "never say no" treatment develop a sense of entitlement that makes them think they can grab my crotch in a bar and get angry at me when I reject them. And no, they were *not* drunk.
• I'm offended when two white guys in my gym talk about the Asians they have slept with and end with "man, the guys here are so easy!"

It's one thing to be attracted to Caucasian men along with other races, but when you disparage your own race and scorn Asian-Asian relationships, it becomes another issue altogether. And when I wrote about the East-West bar, I was saying that we did not need another place to foster, promote and encourage this sort of behavior and mindset. Do we need a club like The Web in NYC, another "east-west" meeting place, where white men used to get in for free, and Asians paid, because the (Asian) owner believed that white guys were a premium?

And when I mention that the Caucasians are "20 years older" I am addressing the issue of the power imbalance, and not being ageist. Why is it that you always see the older white man with the younger Asian and never the other way around? Is there something about being white that makes a person more desirable? Most of the time when I speak with the Asian guy in such relationships, I'm told "the young white guys not interested" so they go with whichever white guy they can get. I for one would love to see a 50-something Asian guy with his 20-something Caucasian boyfriend, but that sight has never crossed my eyes -- in every instance, the reverse is the case.

The issues of race, sexual attraction and power are complex ones that merit discussion and examination. It doesn't help when one is attacked for being "racist" for daring to raise the subject.

GREAT response - read on for my paragraph my paragraph responses and opinions on what you had to say!!

Well, I certainly seem to have hit a nerve with Dinesh. First of all, thanks to Binx and Kayloh for your postings and being able to see some of my points. Now let me address the issue more fully. It's unfortunate that Dinesh fires off the racist label so quickly, without even understanding the issue here. And then he suggests it's because I'm "jealous" of the white men who have all the Asians enthralled. He's so offended by my views, which he doesn't even understand to begin with.

Well You must be jealous, OR maybe isit cuz you have been out in the Big world beyond the tiny Island home and learned a few things (like choosing friends and bed buddies for the RIGHT reasons) but why should reality enter into this conversation?

Contrary to what he presumes, I'm not the least bit offended by interracial relationships, in fact I encourage them. I've happily dated Caucasians, Chinese, Indians, Malays, Japanese, Korean, and African Americans. What I object to is the *fetishization* of one race, and the ethnic self-hated that results. Did my views offend you Dinesh? Well, let me tell you what offend me

If I said I hate it when I (yes fat old me) get treated like a toy boy in SG would you believe it? I hated it and didnt give a second call to those Singaporeans who treated me that way. I dont do it and I dont take it. Respect is very important.

--I'm offended when Asians who date *only* white men tell me that I am a "lesbian" because I date other Asians because "only white men are real men and Asians are women, so if you like Asians, you are lesbian." This phenomenon is so common that it's even mentioned in the afterword of David Henry Hwang's Tony Award-winning play "M Butterfly."

Yes this is one of my favorites - or when I am in an objectivfying mood, though i usually express my disapointment when i see a happy Asian/Asian couple as oh gee look that is two less dates I have possibilities at!!

--I'm offended when an Asian says "if it ain't white, it ain't right" or "aiyoh, I rather have sex with a dog than another Asian" or "aiyah, as long as white, can lah." And yes, all these were sentences said to me by intelligent, attractive, affluent Asians.

This attitude is racist.

--I'm offended when an Asian guy tells me he can't leave his much older white lover who abuses him (physically and emotionally) because "the young white guys don't like me, so what to do... " and when I ask why he won't date another Asian, he says "eeee year, how can date another Asian, so incest, so gross."

This attitude is racist.

--I'm offended when Asian guys think that beauty is only found in Caucasian features and go for eyelid surgery, nose jobs, etc., so they can look "better" -- i.e., more white. In fact, I just read this in the latest issue of Time (cover story on plastic surgery) "The culturally-loaded issue today is the number of Asians looking to remake themselves to look more Caucasian... Asians are increasingly asking their surgeons for wider eyes and longer noses...features not typical of the race."

This is racist, though cosmetic surgeons have been maked money doing this for as long as I have been alive and probably a lot longer.

--I'm offended when a gay American says to me "Singaporeans are not Asian to me. You guys are too proud and aggressive to be real Asians. You need to be more like the Thais and Filipinos and Vietnamese, those are the real Asians. I get treated so much better there, not like in Singapore."

I have often referred to Singapore as the 51st State, not that Singaporeans are any less Asian that the Vietnamese or the Thais, but because at the most unusual times what I consider American Attitudes come out of you guys, I laugh and remind myself about the amount of American Television that you all watch and move on. If ANY Asian group is American the Filippinos get my vote. They were after all part of America and American Citizens from 1898 till 1948, under their Commonwealth status.

--I'm offended when white guys who have enjoyed the "never say no" treatment develop a sense of entitlement that makes them think they can grab my crotch in a bar and get angry at me when I reject them. And no, they were *not* drunk.

In the US we call this the UGLY American Syndrome - EVIDENTLY we have been doing this for the last 230 years.

--I'm offended when two white guys in my gym talk about the Asians they have slept with and end with "man, the guys here are so easy!"

Okay, zipping up my flame proof suit and putting my armor plated jock in place, when you have young guys coming up to you in men's toilets and dropping the pants and wanking next to you as you try to pee it is no wonder they believe that. Yes it happened to me it was in Lucky Plaza on the Level of Vincents - and he pissed me off so much I peed and walked away from him and went back to the Bar and got an ear full from the Bartender at Vincents about the young guys who want sex.

It's one thing to be attracted to Caucasian men along with other races, but when you disparage your own race and scorn Asian-Asian relationships, it becomes another issue altogether. And when I wrote about the East-West bar, I was saying that we did not need another place to foster, promote and encourage this sort of behavior and mindset. Do we need a club like The Web in NYC, another "east-west" meeting place, where white men used to get in for free, and Asians paid, because the (Asian) owner believed that white guys were a premium?

hahahahah you have several that shall remain nameless -

Hey the Owner of the WEB, a good friend of mine, (no not that good,) is a Malaysian Citizen of Chinese ethnicity. He has made more money selling that East/West Rice bar stuff for the Last 12 years YET in there I cannot get a date from any of the Asian guys.

Why? Well since I have a bar stool with a memorial plack with my name on it (hehe NO but almost) - I cannot be making a fool of my self in that place. Yes I am one of the White guys who gets in for free. NOT because I am white but because he knows I will spend money on alcohol all night long for myself and for others who are partying with me (yes some of them are Asians) Most of the Asian who go there are looking for dick, but they want dick attached to hot good looking young buff blonde blue eyed boys. All i can say I have is the blue eyes. They are not by and large an Alcohol consuming crowd unless they have a white boy friend - that is why the Asians pay to go in, he is trying to get somemoney out of them for providing the play space for them. over the last year I have stopped going because it is just too depressing to watch some days. I can drink anywhere.

And when I mention that the Caucasians are "20 years older" I am addressing the issue of the power imbalance, and not being ageist. Why is it that you always see the older white man with the younger Asian and never the other way around? Is there something about being white that makes a person more desirable? Most of the time when I speak with the Asian guy in such relationships, I'm told "the young white guys not interested" so they go with whichever white guy they can get. I for one would love to see a 50-something Asian guy with his 20-something Caucasian boyfriend, but that sight has never crossed my eyes -- in every instance, the reverse is the case.

Yes Eaststar I know you are not ageist, but it was an easy point to raise. Power imbalance it is and again RESPECT and self esteme issues abound. I too would love to see a 20 something white boy with his Asian Daddy. When I see that, then I will know we have come around to a point a reasonablity. YET I will tell you there are more than a few, Singaporeans my age who are for MY age exceptionally good looking, as in NOT showing their age and still having that youthful thin appearance. Yes there is a story but I dont Kiss and tell.

The issues of race, sexual attraction and power are complex ones that merit discussion and examination. It doesn't help when one is attacked for being "racist" for daring to raise the subject.

My point exactly and as Benni asked would be having this discussion if Dinesh hadnt raised his issues. I dont think we would. I understood what you were talking about. Stuff that i have observed in Singapore and in the WEB and some of it is just rude and objectifying. I am not anyone's toy and I wouldnt think of making anyone my toy. I have found some of the best sex, I have experienced in my long life, is with other men not with toys. Asian men are high on my list but I have been with a varitey of men over the course of time.

In my own humble OPINION in Singapore the ease comes from being the different one - the exotic one and damaged goods are still exotic. or if we really want to get techincal, when you have 4 million people who are citizens of one place - of which 400,000 would be plu ....... 200,000 = the opposit sex - of the remaining 200,000 50,000 to young; 50,000 to old for my taste; 50,000 just wont work out, well they want each other. So that leaves 50,000 chasing after the gay male angmoh expats who number what MAYBE 1,000? Gee with odds like that how could any angmoh FAIL to find someone to have sex with. Well i suppose you do have to remain a live during the date but probably not awake. Yes it is really a job not to be a pig and take advantage of this situation. yes that is another story but for another time.

Eaststar you just keep on being who you are. When you see shit dont be affraid to call it shit and dont be affraid to say it stinks.

Uncle Binx

Your second post contains numerous examples, and it would be tedious & repetetive to deal with each point & example, so I have summarised below why i disagree so strongly with your views.

1. What is wrong with fetishizing one ethnicity?

Some guys fetishize muscles, some have a thing for dick size, some go for chubs, some are turned on only by feet / boots. So what is wrong with having an ethnicity fetish? My point remains we don’t know why we are attracted to certain physical or other features. It seems to be a real, powerful and mysterious force. Why can’t we accept ethnicity fetishes the way we accept, say, leather fetishes or whatever?

2. No link shown between ethnic fetishes and bad behaviour.

Keep your (legitimate) unhappiness with arrogance, bigotry, self-loathing, etc APART from the issue of ethnic fetishes. You have not shown any convincing cause-effect link, only given us some selective bad experiences. I don’t understand how fetishizing one ethnicity "results" (your word) in ethnic self-loathing. And I don’t understand how a bar like East West "fosters, promotes and encourages" (again, your words) the bad behaviour you cited.

3. Isolated examples & stereotyping.

Some of the examples you give are indeed nasty, but they are just that, i.e. isolated personal examples. Just because some GAMs or GWMs are offensive in behaviour, can we scorn (because scorn is what you did) - as a whole group - GAMs who exclusively like GWMs / vice versa? It appears you are guilty of negatively stereotyping an entire category of people – and that’s never fair. By the way, you sound like an intelligent & sociable person. I’m surprised that you seem to meet ONLY potato-queens with bad attitudes. I suggest that we tend notice in other people mainly what we expect to see / are looking out for.

4. Your observations do not match my reality.

Your experiences are completely different from my (relatively extensive) contact with potato queens. Therefore I believe the bad behaviour you described is very unlikely to be a widespread social phenomenon among this group. Most guys I know with an ethnic fetish are nice people with high self-esteem, just as capable of having a successful relationship as anyone else and with healthy views about Asians, GAMs, GAM-GAM relationships, etc. I can introduce you to them if you like. You can join me at Backstage one of these weekends & I’ll buy you a drink (really).

5. Bigotry breeds bigotry.

I notice a casual disdain, & loathing among some GAMs (as seen in your original post, Eaststar) towards GWMs and the GAMs who like them. It can make GAMs who are out with GWMs feel very self-conscious. Why should they feel shy? Because they know that a lot of other GAMs look down on them, the way many str8 local guys (and girls) look down on SPGs. Spare a thought for the feelings of SPGs / potato queens. While I am not at all excusing offensive behaviour, some of the negative behaviour you cited is probably a reaction / acting out in response to the scorn they experience from other. So all the more they flaunt and parade their preferences, as a defence mechanism. In fact, the more YOU scorn them, the more bitchy they may be with you. This may explain why you happen to have had so many nasty experiences with potato queens and I have had none, despite having met so many.

As an aside Binx – as it so happens, I am not a potato queen and I prefer guys my own age. I am making these points because I know a number of very nice potato queens who are good friends and it upsets me to see them all unfairly maligned with the same brush.

Dinesh

I have to agree with Eaststar's comments. Don't label me a bigot or a racist for that. I'm of mixed parentage, resulting in my rather "caucasian" appearance (but believe me, I'm a asian through and through) ... many times have I been approached here in our good old island by local asians, under the assumption that I was one of "the others" ... they would ask me where I was from ... unfortunately, in most instances, my would-be suitors left in such a great hurry it left my perfectly-coiffured hair in a mess once they discovered I was just as, if not more, local than they were. So what IS one supposed to assume from instances such as these? I don't fault them for it, though. As Dinesh argues, we all have our own preferences (or fetishes, if that pleases you!)! There are just as many others out there who are perfectly satisfied with me for who I am, so it doesn't bother me!

I guess my point is, Eaststar has HIS opinion, which he cared to share with us. Let's not give him such a hard time over it, if we still are that is. I'm pretty backdated over here, hope I don't blow things up again if they've already gone away.

• i know asian gay men who are only into white gay men and expect to be treated like human beings. i know white gay men who are into gay asian men but do not assume a racist power dynamic when interacting with asian men. they treat each other as human beings.
• i have met white gay men who are into asian gay men and completely objectify asian gay men. this involves them assuming a certain power dynamic in the white gay man's favor in their relations to gay asian men. this assumed power dynamic is clearly racist. i know asian gay men who are only into white gay men because they think that sleeping with another asian is incestuous. this is clearly a form of self-loathing.
•  i know of asian gay men who only date asian gay men because they are only into asian guys, period. some also do it to avoid the complications of interracial relationships, period. i also know of asian gay men who have gone into "reverse-racism" and do not date any white guy because they cannot see them as anything else but the oppressor.
• i have met white gay men only into white gay men for a myriad of reasons, racist and non racist.

you get the picture, i hope.

i think all attraction involves some objectification, some initial stereotyping. the key is to discern whether those objectifications are linked to racism which involve unequal power dynamics of superior-inferior. the historic legacy of 19th Cen. global colonialism, and racism against non-whites in the US has left many structures and attitudes which tend to perpetuate unequal white-supremacist racial dynamics. work to dismantle these structures.

HOWEVER, that does not mean all individual gay white men (who are into gay asian men) today are racist. some are, many are not. that does not mean all asian gay men expect to be subordinated. some do (it's true, most often completed with class issues), most do not (very true also).

i remember my caucasian friend asking if the problematic white-asian dynamic would ever become non-problematic. to which i replied, not in our lifetime.

we're workin' on it, a-ight? must talk more about it! 

A simple posting about an new gay venue East West Bar led to an interesting exchange of views on SiGNeL about the fetishisation of Asian and White in the gay male community. These are very well articulated postings, and I think it would be useful to have them archived here